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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello from show number 166 for the 23rd

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of December 2011 Richard Saunders here

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with you from well a disappointing

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Sydney Australia if you like some of

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that is it sir it's been overcast and

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raining and cool Oh month all month

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folks so like global warming in Reverse

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oh well oh well could be worse I'm sure

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January will be lovely and warm and we

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can all get down to the beach but but

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for this show for this episode of the

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skeptics and what do we have lined up

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for you I catch up with a good friend of

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the skeptic zone Brian Dunning from

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sceptile the Skip toid podcast where

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he's going to chat about little things

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like the moving rocks of Death Valley

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and his projects involving videos and a

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recent award he won always good always

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good to catch up with Brian Dunning

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after that we've got a segment from

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Perth radio Perth here in Western

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Australia announcer Jason Jordan

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interviews our reporter and president of

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the Australian skeptics here in New

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South Wales Iran sir give Jason was very

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interested to find out what skepticism

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is all about and well Iran was happy to

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tell him that interview coming up in the

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middle of the show and to round off the

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show we have Maynard back again Maynard

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wraps up his Australian skeptics and

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national conventions interviews with an

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interview with Jason ball from the young

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Australian skeptics conducted aboard our

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owl floating restaurant at darling

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harbour after the convention at the

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dinner and if that's not enough after

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that Iran sir give turns the microphones

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on Maynard and interviews him now i must

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say a big thank you to everybody who put

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in a bid for the signed CD from Maynard

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Maynard classics and the sceptile three

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book and as it turned out the poster

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from the recent committee for skeptical

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inquiry convention in New Orleans thanks

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very much and I posted those goodies

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plus a few more surprises off to the

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lucky winner a few days ago

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congratulations and thank you thank you

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for pitching in and helping Maynard

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that's the goal folks we gotta get

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Maynard to tam ten next year and I'm

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thrilled to say that we have reached the

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halfway point in the funds we need so

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there's no doubt in my mind we'll get

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there absolutely sure of that with your

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help with your help will certainly get

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there and I think we'll have another

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auction very soon some more skeptical

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goodies and memorabilia coming up and

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before we get stuck into the show a

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reminder to visit skeptic zone TV and

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see the links and information there and

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also to click on our blog which is dr.

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Reggie's blog the skeptics book of

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poo-poo to keep up to date with what

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rate she's getting into at the moment

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and Eve axes no doubt all right what is

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eggnog what the hell is it we don't have

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eggnog here I'm Chuck nip wizard an egg

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and nog how do you look I'm gonna run

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downstairs I'm gonna look in the

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cupboard see if I have some eggnog

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breather put it in the microwave you

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freeze it you warm it over the oven you

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shake it maybe you have it with vodka

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maybe I should google it all right well

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I'm doing that we can all enjoy this

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and joining me on the line from

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beautiful orange county in beautiful

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california in the wonderful united

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states it's the mediocre brian dunning

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from scum toy calm that's the man brian

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good to catch up with you for this end

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of the year sort of roundup chat about

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skeptical matters and skeptical matters

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into yes and speaking of sort of

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skeptical matters i happen to know that

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you were the recipient very recently of

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an award for your wonderful online video

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here be dragons yes here be dragons

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which I which I made actually back in

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two thousand eight with a you know a

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stream Li limited budget and no release

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obviously it's just a just there on the

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internet for whoever wants to find it

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and yeah it's just it's kind of been

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constantly growing in those three years

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ever since more and more people are

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emailing me about it the teachers saying

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that they use it in schools and then a

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few months ago I got an email from the

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Portland humanist Film Festival and they

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they had selected it for I believe they

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called it the independent to juried

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award Wow it was up in Portland Oregon

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last month and so they they flew me up

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there and and hosted me and I had a

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great time what a wonderful little film

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fest it is in Portland is such a such a

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neat little city Portland Oregon yeah

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you know raining all the time and there

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was a occupy portland protests and

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clashes with riot police going on it was

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really really a fun time i'm sorry i

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couldn't have joined you for that i

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think i would have I would have

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sincerely enjoyed that because i've been

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to oregon i found it a wonderful place

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but congratulations again because I I

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find myself watching that video since it

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came out maybe at least once a year just

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to refresh myself and some of the ideas

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and you have a wonderful part in it

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which was the very first skep tied a

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podcast about energy and I'm

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constantly having to tell people what

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energy is or at least say to them now

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when you talk about energy what do you

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mean and they said although then we say

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something like well energies everything

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is made from energy and it's all around

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us and we all vibrate and I'm going head

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that's as good a definition as I've

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heard but thanks to your here be dragons

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and of course the first very first

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episode of sceptile at least I've got a

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much better understanding and indeed you

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covered this topic New Age energy or the

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topic of energy what is energy in one of

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your nice little quick and insightful in

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fact videos which are also available

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online yes it's kind of been it's kind

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of a big several months of video for me

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not only was there here be dragons at

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the Film Festival which I got to see on

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the on the big screen for the first time

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I was in a real theater that was

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something else but yeah the in fact

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series of videos that I'm kind of a

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little bit past midway in season two and

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I guess the most recent video was i'm on

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the website right now was environmental

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toxins the neat thing about these videos

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is I make them specifically for the

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YouTube audience which as we know is an

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audience that's not necessarily

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well-versed in scientific matters so

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environmental toxins is designed to be

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just a kind of quick three-minute

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distilled answer to how you should how

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you should consider these stories in the

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news we're constantly being exposed to

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these scare stories where poisons are

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found in the drinking water poisons are

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found in your baby food everything

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anything and everything and so

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environmental toxins in this episode I

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just kind of give basically that the

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easy examples that easily grasp it

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understood examples of how everything is

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a poison and how everything is dangerous

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it depends completely upon the dose

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there's no such thing between something

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that's always noticing something that's

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always poisonous there's no such thing

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as something that's always safe so I I

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try to make these videos for for the

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YouTube audience which i think is a I

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think is a very worthy goal and of

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course the only reason you

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indeed make these videos or if you get

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down to the the pointy end of the

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argument get skip toyed out is because

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your fans and well-meaning people

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actually kick in chip in and let people

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like you and me do what we want to do

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and produce this stuff yeah yes thus

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kept I'd podcast is very nearly a full

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time job for me so that's completely

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supported by by listener donations so

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there's advertising on the website and

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few things like that but that's that's

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drop in the bucket it's it's ninety-nine

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percent listen or donations and the in

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fact videos are one hundred percent

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viewer funded there's a little

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thermometer on the website and every

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time the thermometer gets filled I make

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a new episode and so the next one which

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is on conspiracy theories that

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thermometer is ninety percent full right

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now and probably will be a hundred

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percent poll by the time this episode

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comes out but if anyone wants to see

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where that thermometer is come to in

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fact video.com and click on support its

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I think it's good for people to realize

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and I try to remind my listeners

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whenever I whenever I can I don't want

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to go overboard doing it but yes when

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they chip in and contribute and some

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people are very generous and send in yes

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money that they can see or hear maybe

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more importantly they can hear what that

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money goes to for my part it certainly

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goes right into production and getting

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people here and there and getting the

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show out and for your part it means that

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they can sit back week after week after

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week and enjoy their 10 minutes of

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sceptile like like me I'm sure you often

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get emails from people saying how can I

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help what what can I do to help promote

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skepticism this is the easiest thing

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because there's lots of guys like me and

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you who are spending full time or

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virtually full time trying to produce

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this content and you know we I'm

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certainly past the point where i can

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continue making sceptile free and i

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don't i make it based on the tiny number

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of subscriptions that come that come

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creeping through the door a lot of

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people are still out there thinking hey

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other people are donating I not

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I don't need to that's not the case we

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do need more help but it is really an

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easy way for everyone to make a

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meaningful contribution without having

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to spend a lot of time or come up with

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some new project or try and compete in

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itunes and all this all this annoys

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that's out there so it's it really is a

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projects like this or a way to really

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bring the community together and produce

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some hopefully high quality content

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that's going to do some good out in the

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world it's a classic case of many hands

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make light work and indeed when people

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chip in a dollar a week or what if it

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was you don't notice that however it can

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turn into a a meaningful certainly a

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meaningful thing but that's that's all

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very good and I'm pleased that people

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are helping people like like you and me

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produce and do what we want to do so

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thank you everybody thank you very much

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thank you for any for any of the skeptic

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zone listeners who also supports kept

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toyed thank you very very much it means

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everything and vice versa I must say I

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like to think that people hear their

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latest they get the latest skip toyed

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fix every week and then then press the

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button and get there later skeptic zone

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and then they would have to sit for a

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week oh the bat best part with you what

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am I going to do I can't wait for the

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next episode to come oh I know I I

273
00:12:26,700 --> 00:12:24,220
people people are always telling me I

274
00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:26,710
downloaded 50 episodes and I listened to

275
00:12:30,030 --> 00:12:28,270
six of them at a time when I'm driving

276
00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:30,040
to work or something like that like I

277
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:33,820
need more I did what Wow what dude my

278
00:12:40,950 --> 00:12:36,850
best now I I had some really great

279
00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:40,960
feedback recently about the the episode

280
00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:44,140
where you and I you and I visited Death

281
00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:47,860
Valley and over out there on the salt

282
00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:50,980
plane at the place which is really far

283
00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:52,390
below sea level I just can't think about

284
00:12:56,820 --> 00:12:55,180
water thank you bad water and I had

285
00:12:59,130 --> 00:12:56,830
quite a few emails from people saying

286
00:13:02,130 --> 00:12:59,140
how much they appreciated the fact that

287
00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:02,140
we recorded a little bit right on scene

288
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:05,560
as it were sort of helping them or

289
00:13:09,630 --> 00:13:07,839
inviting them almost to be on our little

290
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:09,640
trip with us and I must say and I tell

291
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:11,410
everybody I meet people who want to

292
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:12,610
listen to me and people who don't want

293
00:13:17,579 --> 00:13:13,810
to listen to me and strangers in the

294
00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:17,589
street what are great incredible place

295
00:13:22,010 --> 00:13:19,320
Death Valley is and it's one

296
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:22,020
places that must be in anybody's to-do

297
00:13:26,690 --> 00:13:24,480
list bucket list or what have you and

298
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:26,700
you you lucky man you get to get go

299
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:29,040
there quite often I'm about four or five

300
00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:31,110
hours drive away which you know in

301
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:32,640
California distance that's not all that

302
00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:35,010
much and I go there I go there every

303
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:37,590
time I get an excuse PSO any listeners

304
00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:38,850
from out of town if you're ever in

305
00:13:42,770 --> 00:13:40,380
Southern California you want to see

306
00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:42,780
Death Valley give me a call more than

307
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:46,440
likely oh thank you there yeah it's and

308
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:48,000
Richard the three days that you and I

309
00:13:52,190 --> 00:13:49,650
were there I mean we saw just a fraction

310
00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:52,200
of it I mean I had to plan the quickest

311
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:53,910
and dirtiest route possible to catch

312
00:13:57,770 --> 00:13:55,410
just a few of the highlights in one

313
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:57,780
sweep through but we could have spend

314
00:14:02,270 --> 00:14:00,720
weeks there and not run out of things to

315
00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:02,280
see that we're just as amazing as all

316
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:04,260
the places we did go well I was

317
00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:05,910
staggered at the end of the three days

318
00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:07,950
it was I couldn't take it all in

319
00:14:14,660 --> 00:14:10,680
everything we did from the the bad water

320
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:14,670
to the this we encountered snow in the

321
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:16,710
one day we encountered snow and a

322
00:14:22,430 --> 00:14:20,340
sandstorm and scenery ever changing and

323
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:22,440
of course the highlight of the trip was

324
00:14:26,750 --> 00:14:24,330
going to the racetrack to see the

325
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:26,760
marvelous giant moving rocks which

326
00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:28,410
really do move although you don't see

327
00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:29,670
the movement can certainly see that

328
00:14:34,730 --> 00:14:33,060
their tracks and of course one of the

329
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:34,740
comp the classic comment from visiting

330
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:38,010
that spot is I actually went to a world

331
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:40,290
mystery spot where something really

332
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:43,440
happens yet said that's that's the neat

333
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:44,880
thing about it because something

334
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:47,130
actually does happen there and we had

335
00:14:50,540 --> 00:14:48,660
this conversation on the way if you go

336
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,550
to a haunted house or something like

337
00:14:55,910 --> 00:14:52,800
that and you bring your video camera I'm

338
00:14:57,410 --> 00:14:55,920
going to get some cool video of what of

339
00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:57,420
course you go to a haunted house with

340
00:15:01,310 --> 00:14:59,940
nothing happens add you go to the

341
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,320
racetrack you're not going to see the

342
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:03,120
move but you can see that the evidence

343
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:04,770
of the moving because the rocks they've

344
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:06,900
all leave these great obvious tracks in

345
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:10,500
the mud yes so you actually get to go to

346
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:12,330
a place where something actually happens

347
00:15:16,130 --> 00:15:13,920
that's that's that's something that's

348
00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:16,140
all too rare in the whole kind of you

349
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:19,200
know spooky paranormal world it is it is

350
00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:21,330
you gotta look for Bigfoot or luckiest

351
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:23,190
one so you can sit there for a year with

352
00:15:27,290 --> 00:15:25,110
your camera nothing will happen to go to

353
00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:27,300
this place there they are these

354
00:15:33,079 --> 00:15:31,230
wonderful incredible big I was surprised

355
00:15:35,780 --> 00:15:33,089
at the size of some of these rocks

356
00:15:37,369 --> 00:15:35,790
these big daddy got two and I'm right

357
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:37,379
number for it I don't walk as far out as

358
00:15:41,569 --> 00:15:39,209
we went this time and there's lots of

359
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:41,579
smaller rocks out toward the out toward

360
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:43,170
the edges kind of the first mile or so

361
00:15:47,329 --> 00:15:45,240
yeah you go all the way across to where

362
00:15:50,780 --> 00:15:47,339
you and I went there's some big ones boy

363
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:50,790
and we certainly felt felt the the

364
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,370
biting unbelievably biting cold wind

365
00:15:57,619 --> 00:15:55,920
that day that was just incredible and of

366
00:15:58,910 --> 00:15:57,629
course that cold weather that you get

367
00:16:02,629 --> 00:15:58,920
there on the racetrack that's a large

368
00:16:05,929 --> 00:16:02,639
part of why the rocks move now I'm

369
00:16:07,970 --> 00:16:05,939
trying to visualize you you've come up

370
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:07,980
with a very good reason as to why these

371
00:16:13,970 --> 00:16:09,839
rocks probably move and it has to do

372
00:16:18,019 --> 00:16:13,980
with ice and wind doesn't it yeah when I

373
00:16:20,449 --> 00:16:18,029
was there doe gosh 2002 something like

374
00:16:23,090 --> 00:16:20,459
that i'm not sure the data about them it

375
00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:23,100
was absolutely freezing but it was a

376
00:16:26,929 --> 00:16:24,600
little bit later in the year it was

377
00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:26,939
after there had been some snow melt and

378
00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:28,980
the racetrack is quite high up in

379
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:30,870
elevation even though it's this flat dry

380
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:32,610
mud lake bed you think of it something

381
00:16:37,429 --> 00:16:34,050
down at sea level but it's not it's

382
00:16:40,549 --> 00:16:37,439
quite high and you get you get snow up

383
00:16:41,989 --> 00:16:40,559
there and when the snow melts and runs

384
00:16:45,319 --> 00:16:41,999
down onto the racetrack you get a like

385
00:16:48,079 --> 00:16:45,329
and in the in the winter it can be

386
00:16:51,199 --> 00:16:48,089
extremely windy up there and when it's

387
00:16:53,809 --> 00:16:51,209
below freezing and it's windy you have

388
00:16:56,299 --> 00:16:53,819
these huge sheets of ice forming across

389
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:56,309
the top of this lake and the wind pushes

390
00:17:01,400 --> 00:16:58,410
the whole lake and pushes the sheet of

391
00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:01,410
ice across across the the mudflats and

392
00:17:05,179 --> 00:17:03,420
that was that was something that I had

393
00:17:07,939 --> 00:17:05,189
no expectation of seeing it was a

394
00:17:12,529 --> 00:17:07,949
complete surprise to me and there's

395
00:17:13,669 --> 00:17:12,539
video of that on on YouTube yeah Richard

396
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:13,679
you put in your show notes you can put a

397
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:15,510
link to that video on youtube of the of

398
00:17:19,549 --> 00:17:18,000
the the ice sheet moving moving across

399
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:19,559
the lake if people want to see that it

400
00:17:22,909 --> 00:17:20,880
was really something to see this whole

401
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:22,919
Lake moving at just about a walking

402
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:26,730
speed and of course you know wind and

403
00:17:30,260 --> 00:17:28,710
mud that doesn't have horsepower to pick

404
00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:30,270
up a rock that's stuck in the mud ants

405
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:33,630
and started moving along but a you know

406
00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:35,250
a sheet of ice well just think of a

407
00:17:39,169 --> 00:17:37,230
glacier a sheet of ice can move whatever

408
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:39,179
the heck it wants to move no matter how

409
00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:41,130
much that rock ways and that's exactly

410
00:17:46,290 --> 00:17:43,049
what happens and it's really something

411
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:46,300
else to see it so are you saying that

412
00:17:53,910 --> 00:17:49,710
the I the water will will thought will

413
00:17:56,370 --> 00:17:53,920
come into the the the area but be

414
00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:56,380
advised snow or snow melt will it freeze

415
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:00,240
around the rocks or will the rocks

416
00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:03,310
encounter the leading edge of a movement

417
00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:06,700
of ice I think both happen certainly

418
00:18:10,770 --> 00:18:09,100
certainly both happen in fact because

419
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:10,780
when when I was there there was rocks

420
00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:12,640
out in the water and there was rocks in

421
00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:14,830
the path of where this lake was moving

422
00:18:20,970 --> 00:18:18,550
to and you know that is from from being

423
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:20,980
there we see rocks that will their their

424
00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:22,570
paths will go out one direction and then

425
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:24,070
it will come back a day in the direction

426
00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:26,290
it came from and they'll sometimes

427
00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:27,940
they'll they'll go to different

428
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:30,310
directions nearby each other yeah and

429
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:33,090
it's it's fairly clear watching these

430
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:35,200
watching these sheets of ice as they

431
00:18:38,730 --> 00:18:36,880
break up and they get pushed across the

432
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:38,740
surface of this moving lake you know

433
00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:40,690
it's not all one uniform motion it's

434
00:18:45,150 --> 00:18:42,280
little bits and pieces going here and

435
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:45,160
there and of course in the afternoon

436
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:46,960
when the wind changes direction the

437
00:18:51,150 --> 00:18:48,910
sheet of ice comes right back again and

438
00:18:54,420 --> 00:18:51,160
is either going to push nudge or drag

439
00:18:55,890 --> 00:18:54,430
any rocks that are caught in it I a

440
00:18:57,420 --> 00:18:55,900
crossed our mind or it certainly crossed

441
00:18:59,460 --> 00:18:57,430
my mind when I was there I thought well

442
00:19:01,440 --> 00:18:59,470
why don't we just set up a tent brine

443
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:01,450
here for a couple of weeks and we can

444
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:03,610
wait and see it really happening but it

445
00:19:09,630 --> 00:19:07,690
is it is a severe there isn't it it's

446
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:09,640
it's not like you can just set up a tent

447
00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:11,530
and sit back with you a campfire and

448
00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:12,760
have a cup of tea and wait for these

449
00:19:18,660 --> 00:19:15,340
things to happen it's bitter it's better

450
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:18,670
conditions yeah I think I think I really

451
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:21,130
do want to plan it plan a trip to get

452
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:23,110
out there and see it but it's not going

453
00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:24,640
to be set up a tent and wait for a week

454
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:27,220
it's you go there when the conditions

455
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:29,530
are likely to be good and you spend one

456
00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:31,510
night there and you kind of get in and

457
00:19:35,940 --> 00:19:33,070
out that's that's that's what I'm

458
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:35,950
planning to do Death Valley folks again

459
00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:39,130
i can't i can't recommend it enough it's

460
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:41,680
you can't see it all in a day or two

461
00:19:46,140 --> 00:19:44,110
days or a week or whatever it is there

462
00:19:48,690 --> 00:19:46,150
are places to stay I sound like a

463
00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:48,700
tourism advocate for national parks in

464
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:50,350
California don't know but it really is a

465
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:52,000
wonderful place where I came back from

466
00:19:56,910 --> 00:19:54,610
tam Australia I sounded exactly like you

467
00:19:58,740 --> 00:19:56,920
and I'm telling people about the guru

468
00:20:02,220 --> 00:19:58,750
and the olgas so

469
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:02,230
now Brian what we hope is going to

470
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:05,290
happen in 2012 before the end of the

471
00:20:10,410 --> 00:20:07,570
world is this certainly enough interest

472
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:10,420
here in Australia to look at getting you

473
00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:12,490
back out flying you back out and doing a

474
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,020
little tour and what I'd like to do

475
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:15,760
right now is put it to our listeners

476
00:20:19,860 --> 00:20:17,650
here in Australia in the capital cities

477
00:20:22,650 --> 00:20:19,870
and maybe some of the bigger regional

478
00:20:24,570 --> 00:20:22,660
ones if we can get Brian Dunning out

479
00:20:26,490 --> 00:20:24,580
here would you like to see him talk and

480
00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:26,500
maybe do a double act with yours truly

481
00:20:33,030 --> 00:20:28,990
maybe a double bill a double skeptical

482
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:33,040
talk sometime in 2012 I'm sure you'd be

483
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:36,010
interested in that Brian I would love to

484
00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:38,080
do that I had so much fun on that trip

485
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:39,790
and and I've got some great new shows

486
00:20:44,820 --> 00:20:42,370
that that I've been giving out here that

487
00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:44,830
are that are a lot of fun as something I

488
00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:46,180
would love to bring to the to the

489
00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:50,140
Australian audience I i think i think i

490
00:20:54,660 --> 00:20:51,880
think it's it's one of the places I've

491
00:20:56,250 --> 00:20:54,670
been where I had more fun and really

492
00:20:57,660 --> 00:20:56,260
felt a connection with the people so I'd

493
00:20:59,670 --> 00:20:57,670
love to come back and do a tour of

494
00:21:02,100 --> 00:20:59,680
Australia well there we are folks if

495
00:21:04,050 --> 00:21:02,110
you're interested or you can help out or

496
00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:04,060
you got some ideas please drop a line to

497
00:21:10,410 --> 00:21:08,140
Richard at skipping zone TV let me know

498
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:10,420
what you think and hopefully maybe a bit

499
00:21:16,140 --> 00:21:13,120
later in 2012 we can arrange for a tour

500
00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:16,150
a skeptical tour with brian dunning

501
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:18,640
wouldn't that be exciting Brian I hope

502
00:21:23,010 --> 00:21:21,250
that you have a wonderful christmas and

503
00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:23,020
a happy new year and i will be seeing

504
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:25,030
you very early in the new year i'll drop

505
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:26,890
by for a visit can't wait to get back

506
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:30,850
into the hot tub of truth that might be

507
00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:32,320
a good time to plan that Death Valley

508
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:35,470
trip as well look any excuse to get back

509
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:38,280
their prime Dunning from skype.com

510
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:54,580
have you heard about QED the exciting

511
00:21:59,530 --> 00:21:56,090
skeptical conference tenth and eleventh

512
00:22:01,060 --> 00:21:59,540
of March 2012 quite exciting days you're

513
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:01,070
probably wondering why should i go to

514
00:22:05,650 --> 00:22:03,770
QED while the existential dilemma will

515
00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:05,660
have the investigator and legend joe

516
00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:07,670
nickell quite extraordinary detective

517
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:10,070
alternative medicine expert absorb ernst

518
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,410
quacks in Deward difficulties monsters

519
00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:14,480
werewolves and lucid dreaming from debra

520
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:17,750
hi working tue demons Massimo polidoro

521
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:21,110
head of the Italian questo agrees your

522
00:22:25,690 --> 00:22:22,850
Dettori David a run a and

523
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:25,700
conspiracy theories ytb doubles secular

524
00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:28,340
campaign Miriam namazi well equality

525
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:30,260
detractors sara angeles will show us how

526
00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:31,760
to play the Federman with robots

527
00:22:36,820 --> 00:22:34,790
withering electronic devices ufologist

528
00:22:38,650 --> 00:22:36,830
ian Ridpath with extraterrestrial

529
00:22:40,870 --> 00:22:38,660
details professor steve jones and why

530
00:22:42,610 --> 00:22:40,880
creationism is not quiet and evolution

531
00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:42,620
deniers podcaster and spoon bender

532
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:44,600
Richard Saunders questions ESP

533
00:22:48,550 --> 00:22:46,370
demonstrations there are filia Benson

534
00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:48,560
Queen existentialist debater and we'll

535
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:50,270
have comedy from Robin Ince and gas

536
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:52,730
quality into tim and definitely tickets

537
00:22:57,700 --> 00:22:54,530
her 89 pounds and they're going fast so

538
00:23:00,520 --> 00:22:57,710
hurry q everybody directly would you cut

539
00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:00,530
that out you can get your ticket from

540
00:23:06,610 --> 00:23:04,520
QED calm dot org court event dome in

541
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:06,620
marsh seriously if you don't stop bang

542
00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:08,450
enough to hurt quickly end discussion

543
00:23:26,649 --> 00:23:11,000
comes QED not just question explore

544
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:29,210
Aaron Segev joins us president of the

545
00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:31,919
Australian skeptics iron hello Caitlin

546
00:23:37,490 --> 00:23:35,190
our Erin Australian skeptics what as an

547
00:23:39,409 --> 00:23:37,500
organization are you guys all about I

548
00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:39,419
mean you guys as an organization just

549
00:23:44,539 --> 00:23:40,769
focused on things that you don't believe

550
00:23:47,570 --> 00:23:44,549
in no a skepticism in the moderns and it

551
00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:47,580
is all about seeking evidence so yes it

552
00:23:51,860 --> 00:23:49,769
is about not believing but it is also

553
00:23:54,379 --> 00:23:51,870
about searching for evidence for things

554
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:54,389
especially when people make claims that

555
00:23:59,090 --> 00:23:56,730
are seeing bit dubious or hard to

556
00:24:00,649 --> 00:23:59,100
believe we look for the evidence for

557
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:00,659
those claims and very often we don't

558
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:02,610
find here the evidence that we find that

559
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:03,809
the evidence is non-existent

560
00:24:07,639 --> 00:24:06,000
non-existent but other times we find

561
00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:07,649
evidence and things that seem strange

562
00:24:12,139 --> 00:24:10,740
are actually true so are just really

563
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:12,149
another know another way of naming the

564
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:13,289
Australian skeptics would be the

565
00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:17,000
Australian empiricists that's true

566
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:19,769
skepticism in the modern sense is at the

567
00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:22,740
basis of science every scientist well

568
00:24:27,379 --> 00:24:25,500
every good scientist anyway is a skeptic

569
00:24:30,139 --> 00:24:27,389
by the very nature of their job they

570
00:24:32,389 --> 00:24:30,149
have to look for evidence they have to

571
00:24:34,129 --> 00:24:32,399
assume things are not true unless they

572
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:34,139
find the evidence to support the claim

573
00:24:38,899 --> 00:24:37,679
now Iran the primary reason that I asked

574
00:24:40,879 --> 00:24:38,909
for you to come on the show this

575
00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:40,889
afternoon is an article that appeared on

576
00:24:44,749 --> 00:24:43,529
personal calm today you and I'll just

577
00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:44,759
read you out the first couple of

578
00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:46,860
paragraphs I did read this a little bit

579
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:48,809
earlier for our listeners alternative

580
00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:50,970
medicine is unethical criminal and

581
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:52,919
likely contributed to the death of Apple

582
00:24:57,169 --> 00:24:54,809
boss Steve Jobs according to visiting

583
00:24:58,669 --> 00:24:57,179
professor Ed's odd Ernst the world's

584
00:25:00,110 --> 00:24:58,679
first professor of complementary

585
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:00,120
medicine was in Adelaide yesterday to

586
00:25:04,460 --> 00:25:02,250
speak at the australasian pharmaceutical

587
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,470
science association conference at uni sa

588
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:06,480
famous for causing an uproar when in

589
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:08,370
july he labeled prince charles a snake

590
00:25:12,889 --> 00:25:10,710
oil salesman for his dandelion and detox

591
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:12,899
remedy professor earns yesterday spoke

592
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:15,210
of the dangers of unproven complementary

593
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:17,490
medicine now what's the Australian

594
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:19,320
skeptics thoughts on things like

595
00:25:23,210 --> 00:25:22,110
homeopathy and aromatherapy and all of

596
00:25:26,150 --> 00:25:23,220
those sorts of alternative and

597
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:26,160
complementary medicines well

598
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:27,930
we like to call them alternative to

599
00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:29,310
medicine rather than alternative

600
00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:31,860
medicine because it makes them when you

601
00:25:34,850 --> 00:25:33,180
score them alternative medicine it

602
00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:34,860
sounds like it's medicine the reality is

603
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:36,180
that the reason all of these things are

604
00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:39,600
complementary are not considered to be

605
00:25:43,550 --> 00:25:42,150
part of scientific medicine is because

606
00:25:45,770 --> 00:25:43,560
there is no sufficient evidence to

607
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:45,780
support them now they're varying degrees

608
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:49,010
of quackery for example homeopathy

609
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:51,480
cannot actually work it's not just that

610
00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:53,520
it doesn't work it cannot work unless

611
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:55,710
everything we know about chemistry and

612
00:26:01,910 --> 00:25:59,880
physics and biology it's all not true so

613
00:26:03,950 --> 00:26:01,920
I mean surely some of the homeopathy

614
00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:03,960
though has a placebo effect and in that

615
00:26:08,510 --> 00:26:06,150
way it does actually work oh absolutely

616
00:26:11,090 --> 00:26:08,520
but what people in people very often say

617
00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:11,100
well why not give it a fever but that

618
00:26:13,340 --> 00:26:12,180
raises all kinds of interesting

619
00:26:16,190 --> 00:26:13,350
questions for example when you take a

620
00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:16,200
paracetamol for your headache panadol

621
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:19,080
whatever that has a placebo effects as

622
00:26:23,690 --> 00:26:22,050
well so we a medicine real medicine also

623
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:23,700
has a placebo effect but it has

624
00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:25,910
additional you also have a real

625
00:26:31,220 --> 00:26:28,680
therapeutic effects so in the question

626
00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:31,230
then is who decides about somebody needs

627
00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:32,790
to be lied to in order to take a

628
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:35,220
perceiver so who decides that it's okay

629
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,440
to lies the doctor that decides is the

630
00:26:41,420 --> 00:26:39,120
family that decides who this is the

631
00:26:42,830 --> 00:26:41,430
decision making a good decision and that

632
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:42,840
raises all kinds all kinds of

633
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:45,090
interesting questions but in any case

634
00:26:49,340 --> 00:26:47,730
there's all these alternatives some of

635
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:49,350
them cannot work like Romeo Patti others

636
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:52,110
can work all you need to do is find the

637
00:26:56,090 --> 00:26:53,490
evidence that he works for example

638
00:26:58,820 --> 00:26:56,100
naturopathy czar all about using plants

639
00:27:00,260 --> 00:26:58,830
and all kinds of natural products that

640
00:27:01,790 --> 00:27:00,270
it can work and many of our

641
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:01,800
pharmaceuticals actually do come from

642
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:03,360
plants in the first place absolutely i

643
00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:05,400
mean aspirin obviously the primary

644
00:27:09,490 --> 00:27:07,440
example comes from willow bark but

645
00:27:12,140 --> 00:27:09,500
there's lots of other examples of

646
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,150
medication that comes from some plans or

647
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:14,880
at least that plants were originally

648
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:17,730
looked at and then the active ingredient

649
00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:22,050
was perhaps synthesized or isolated and

650
00:27:25,780 --> 00:27:24,270
then in refined and from a cigar

651
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,790
industry if the pharmaceutical industry

652
00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:27,840
actively looks for these kind of things

653
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:30,120
because it makes their work a lot easier

654
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:32,760
than to start from scratch what things

655
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:36,330
like magnetic therapy uh well a magnetic

656
00:27:42,169 --> 00:27:40,110
therapy uh you know people go to

657
00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:42,179
MRI and they have they have their

658
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:47,400
magnets that are probably about 50,000

659
00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:49,410
times i think it is stronger than fridge

660
00:27:54,770 --> 00:27:52,350
magnet and they and they don't heal they

661
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:54,780
just do diagnosis and you require very

662
00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:56,970
sensitive instruments to diagnose the

663
00:28:02,419 --> 00:27:59,610
things that they define motions that

664
00:28:06,350 --> 00:28:02,429
they creating molecules inside the human

665
00:28:09,740 --> 00:28:06,360
body now people put the equivalent of a

666
00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:09,750
fridge magnet on their on their me sony

667
00:28:15,260 --> 00:28:11,940
or whatever and expect that that would

668
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:15,270
somehow heal them well you know what

669
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:17,010
about all the people who work at MRI

670
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:18,809
they're exposed to huge magnetic fields

671
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,610
all the time and they are not healed but

672
00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:22,080
you know they have the normal ailments

673
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:25,049
that humans have if the reality is that

674
00:28:31,580 --> 00:28:27,630
the magnetic force is so weak and the

675
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:31,590
human body is so non-magnetic that it's

676
00:28:35,150 --> 00:28:33,570
it's unlikely to do anything that's all

677
00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:35,160
any indeed there's no evidence that it

678
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:36,750
does so and that's actually very

679
00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:38,130
important you asked about skepticism

680
00:28:42,169 --> 00:28:40,470
earlier when we say that there's no

681
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:42,179
evidence that something works is really

682
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:45,570
two kinds of no evidence one is there's

683
00:28:48,590 --> 00:28:46,650
no evidence because it hasn't been

684
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:48,600
looked at yet and the other is there's

685
00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:50,190
no evidence despite having looked at

686
00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:52,230
it's very very very strongly for a very

687
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:55,049
long time so for example I think you

688
00:28:58,850 --> 00:28:57,210
won't you mentioned a naturopathy or I'm

689
00:29:00,350 --> 00:28:58,860
a therapy these things have been studies

690
00:29:01,820 --> 00:29:00,360
they have there are studies they have

691
00:29:03,710 --> 00:29:01,830
been looked at and there's no evidence

692
00:29:05,030 --> 00:29:03,720
that's not the same as something

693
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:05,040
completely new that hasn't been looked

694
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:08,010
at yet and it may be plausible but you

695
00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:09,450
know so maybe sometime in the future

696
00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:11,070
we'll be fine to be working what about

697
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:13,620
some of the ancient treatments for

698
00:29:17,539 --> 00:29:16,320
example acupuncture well acupuncture

699
00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:17,549
first of all it's not as ancient as

700
00:29:21,169 --> 00:29:20,040
people think it is there's a new book I

701
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:21,179
can't remember the name of the moment is

702
00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:23,490
new book that came out recently in the

703
00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:25,980
US that actually describes the history

704
00:29:29,060 --> 00:29:27,150
of acupuncture he told me if you

705
00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:29,070
actually function the model sent in only

706
00:29:34,580 --> 00:29:31,740
a few hundred years old the Archie

707
00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:34,590
puncture was for a folk remedy the there

708
00:29:39,850 --> 00:29:37,380
is no there's no evidence at all that it

709
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:39,860
at any time he did anything more than

710
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:42,720
provide some placebo effect at a time

711
00:29:48,380 --> 00:29:45,679
when scientific medicine hasn't work the

712
00:29:49,970 --> 00:29:48,390
thing about if you look at China where

713
00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:49,980
this is supposed to have originated in

714
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:51,750
even that is in doubt but let's say

715
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:54,310
modern modern

716
00:30:00,610 --> 00:29:57,650
acupuncture thought started in China few

717
00:30:02,830 --> 00:30:00,620
hundred years ago you look at China the

718
00:30:04,990 --> 00:30:02,840
Chinese as soon as Western medicine was

719
00:30:07,450 --> 00:30:05,000
available to them in this seventeen

720
00:30:09,490 --> 00:30:07,460
eighteen hundreds and obviously into the

721
00:30:12,970 --> 00:30:09,500
nineteenth and twentieth century they've

722
00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:12,980
moved in in groves in that direction and

723
00:30:18,130 --> 00:30:16,190
now what we call Chinese medicine is

724
00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:18,140
something that's only used by the poor

725
00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:20,840
in the cities they use Western medicine

726
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:22,550
and but what a look what happened to

727
00:30:26,290 --> 00:30:24,710
their health in general and to the life

728
00:30:29,260 --> 00:30:26,300
expectancy their life expectancy in

729
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:29,270
China is as risen significantly and it's

730
00:30:32,740 --> 00:30:31,130
higher in the cities where they use

731
00:30:35,230 --> 00:30:32,750
western medicine scientific medicine

732
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:35,240
than it is in their villages in there in

733
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:37,490
the towns where they use folk remedies

734
00:30:40,570 --> 00:30:39,110
because they can't afford to use Western

735
00:30:41,980 --> 00:30:40,580
medicine I guess there's a lot to be

736
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:41,990
said for the fact that the human body

737
00:30:45,310 --> 00:30:43,610
does a lot of healing of itself anyway

738
00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:45,320
so whether you're taking a homeopathic

739
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:49,070
or or aromatherapy type treatment your

740
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:51,050
body is very often healing itself

741
00:30:55,210 --> 00:30:53,210
regardless oh absolutely but the thing

742
00:30:56,380 --> 00:30:55,220
is you can also do nothing at all in the

743
00:30:58,750 --> 00:30:56,390
same will happen you know there's that

744
00:31:01,330 --> 00:30:58,760
always that joke about the flu goes away

745
00:31:03,610 --> 00:31:01,340
you know seven days if you don't do

746
00:31:07,390 --> 00:31:03,620
anything and sit in a week if you take

747
00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:07,400
it easy oh yeah that's actually true you

748
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:08,780
don't have to necessarily do something

749
00:31:11,940 --> 00:31:10,910
now in some cases there's no harm if you

750
00:31:15,610 --> 00:31:11,950
talk about something like aromatherapy

751
00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:15,620
the harm is only that your pocket is a

752
00:31:19,690 --> 00:31:18,110
little bit lighter when you leave but

753
00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:19,700
there's other things where it could be a

754
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:21,500
little bit more dangerous for example

755
00:31:25,150 --> 00:31:22,880
with the only obviously if you take it

756
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:25,160
for some pain or something no problem at

757
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:27,530
all but I think many of your listeners

758
00:31:32,260 --> 00:31:29,330
might have might have heard of glorious

759
00:31:34,150 --> 00:31:32,270
a mallow baby who's homeopath parents

760
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:34,160
gave it on me Appa the-- instead of

761
00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:37,600
treating her really bad eczema with

762
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:40,220
pharmaceuticals with proper madiba

763
00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:43,250
proven medicine and she died she died

764
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:45,320
from eczema yeah which is absolutely

765
00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:47,510
horrible so and there are obviously lots

766
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:50,180
of cases where with cancer you know when

767
00:31:56,770 --> 00:31:53,120
people choose to not treat cancer with

768
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:56,780
chemo or radiation but rather you choose

769
00:31:59,470 --> 00:31:58,130
to use on the upper feel some

770
00:32:01,090 --> 00:31:59,480
alternative medicine there's a famous

771
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:01,100
case in Perth actually of Penelope

772
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:04,130
Penelope bingo yes somewhere 11 purse

773
00:32:09,370 --> 00:32:06,530
woman who died often

774
00:32:12,130 --> 00:32:09,380
the opposite to treat her colorectal

775
00:32:14,590 --> 00:32:12,140
cancer and she she died to her the

776
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:14,600
progress of vertices was the same as an

777
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:17,360
untreated disease yes and uh and that's

778
00:32:20,980 --> 00:32:19,310
that's where the risk we live you're not

779
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:20,990
actually doing what you're supposed to

780
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:23,450
do now it's not like she will have

781
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:26,750
certainly lived if she used proper

782
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:29,510
medications but her chances would have

783
00:32:33,790 --> 00:32:31,210
been hired would have been higher ya

784
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:33,800
around look uh we're running out of time

785
00:32:36,730 --> 00:32:35,330
I'd love to speak to you again at some

786
00:32:38,650 --> 00:32:36,740
point in the next couple of weeks if

787
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:38,660
that's okay hopefully you're not going

788
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:40,850
on holiday so we can talk to you I am

789
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:45,170
actually going overseas first of all I'm

790
00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:47,210
available 24 hours a day overseas as

791
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:49,310
well but also we have other people who

792
00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:50,810
will be able to speak all right well we

793
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:52,070
may have a chat with some of those in

794
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:53,450
the coming weeks because there's a few

795
00:32:57,220 --> 00:32:55,760
areas that I want to cover thank you so

796
00:33:10,130 --> 00:32:57,230
much for joining us today and have a

797
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:13,140
this is ben Radford I'm deputy editor of

798
00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:14,710
skeptical inquirer science magazine

799
00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:16,750
author of six books including tracking

800
00:33:26,990 --> 00:33:18,670
chupacabra and you can find out more

801
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:31,650
here's my not spooky action at a

802
00:33:46,940 --> 00:33:45,049
good look currently I'm just with the

803
00:33:49,220 --> 00:33:46,950
president mr. and skeptics end up I

804
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:49,230
believe you organize a very expensive it

805
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:51,330
looks like it's some sort of oral

806
00:33:58,970 --> 00:33:53,970
another light entertainment of light

807
00:34:01,039 --> 00:33:58,980
entertainment this is amazing up you've

808
00:34:03,289 --> 00:34:01,049
actually I kind of like this thing we're

809
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:03,299
looking at now and it's actually a naked

810
00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:05,130
picture of Richard Saunders painted out

811
00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:06,510
with fireworks yeah that's why we're

812
00:34:10,430 --> 00:34:08,760
looking the other way the bomb yeah

813
00:34:11,899 --> 00:34:10,440
obviously our William for this

814
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:11,909
conference wanted it to be a big event

815
00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:15,810
so we organized the fireworks display we

816
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:18,030
arranged or be the foster to be arrested

817
00:34:26,270 --> 00:34:20,520
yesterday it wasn't easy but it's worth

818
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:26,280
it like this is amazing stuff others

819
00:34:31,849 --> 00:34:29,250
just hear that and now they're smelling

820
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:31,859
out oh look its barrel Tory's home

821
00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:35,970
address the basic what's going on I

822
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:38,700
can't comment on that what do you want

823
00:34:42,590 --> 00:34:40,770
to know well I'm standing I'm standing

824
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:42,600
in my beautiful outdoor studio here in

825
00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:44,159
earlier you heard some fireworks because

826
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:45,990
obviously the revolution has started um

827
00:34:49,460 --> 00:34:47,970
do you know who's starting it he's

828
00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:49,470
starting the revolution yeah I couldn't

829
00:34:52,609 --> 00:34:50,730
tell they have nice fireworks without

830
00:34:54,349 --> 00:34:52,619
the right the left the libertarian the

831
00:34:57,260 --> 00:34:54,359
sex party who was who was starting that

832
00:34:59,390 --> 00:34:57,270
the skeptics the skeptics man leading

833
00:35:01,580 --> 00:34:59,400
the revolution as you hire some reason

834
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:01,590
and you are you're rocking the house

835
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:04,050
with science and reason we're I'm giving

836
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:08,970
it a shot I'm a sort of work working at

837
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:10,050
the moment with a group called the

838
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:12,570
freethought University alliance so what

839
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:14,850
we're trying to do is sort of set up a

840
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:17,490
network of all of the existing sort of

841
00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:20,250
skeptic and atheist and secular humanist

842
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:22,800
rationalist campus groups that exist to

843
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:26,640
try and help them work together to I

844
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:29,040
guess sort of unify their movement I

845
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:30,990
guess and coordinate national campaigns

846
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:32,960
because all of these groups have sort of

847
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:36,210
sprung up completely independently of

848
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:38,250
one another over the over between sort

849
00:35:45,090 --> 00:35:41,530
of you know 2007 and 2010

850
00:35:47,310 --> 00:35:45,100
and basically what we wanted to do was

851
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:47,320
create an organization to help them out

852
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:49,090
to help them grow and to help start up

853
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:50,470
new clubs because I think it's really

854
00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:53,440
important as skeptics and as atheists

855
00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:55,140
and as humanists and whatever to have a

856
00:35:59,700 --> 00:35:57,730
presence at university because i think

857
00:36:02,490 --> 00:35:59,710
it's it's that point in a person's life

858
00:36:04,830 --> 00:36:02,500
where they're kind of trying to figure

859
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:04,840
out their worldview or kind of figure

860
00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:06,400
out what they're passionate about and i

861
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:09,070
think as we have to be there as sort of

862
00:36:12,510 --> 00:36:10,810
one of the options that people can sort

863
00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:12,520
of take up to be active about it to be

864
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:14,620
passionate about as skepticism as a

865
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:16,960
thing if you know what i mean and jason

866
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:18,790
where can people find you on the web or

867
00:36:23,010 --> 00:36:21,040
your group to get into a discussion with

868
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:23,020
you so will the freethought University

869
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:24,250
Alliance you can go to free thought

870
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:26,560
Alliance taught all day you we've also

871
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:29,230
on Twitter and Facebook um I mean some

872
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:30,910
other groups I'm involved with the young

873
00:36:35,490 --> 00:36:33,310
Australian skeptics in particular trying

874
00:36:37,410 --> 00:36:35,500
to you know introduce young people into

875
00:36:39,570 --> 00:36:37,420
the skeptical movement so that's a young

876
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:39,580
loss skeptics calm hey Jason when I was

877
00:36:43,410 --> 00:36:42,040
down in Melbourne I had a chat with the

878
00:36:45,330 --> 00:36:43,420
freethinkers down there at the Melbourne

879
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:45,340
Uni at skip the camp yeah and that was a

880
00:36:49,260 --> 00:36:47,050
really great coming together lots of

881
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:49,270
groups I'm was told at Melbourne that

882
00:36:53,070 --> 00:36:51,250
the scene doesn't seem as coherent in

883
00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:53,080
Melbourne as it is in Sydney but from

884
00:36:56,730 --> 00:36:55,000
what I saw there's lots of groups of a

885
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:56,740
similar ilk working together very well

886
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:58,090
in album what do you think is the case

887
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:00,400
no I think they absolutely are working

888
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:03,520
together I mean skeptic camp was a like

889
00:37:07,290 --> 00:37:05,530
a coalition between the Victorian

890
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:07,300
skeptics the Melbourne skeptics the

891
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:09,280
University of Melbourne secular society

892
00:37:13,290 --> 00:37:11,530
they're all they've got a common purpose

893
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:13,300
and then I'm actually quite happy to

894
00:37:16,620 --> 00:37:14,890
work together so I think it's been

895
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:16,630
really good down there what's the schism

896
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:18,310
is there a schism so there's always a

897
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:19,690
schism in something if you look hard

898
00:37:23,370 --> 00:37:21,310
enough with skeptics sometimes it can be

899
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:23,380
skeptics believe in God and ones that

900
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:25,330
are atheists although I don't see a lot

901
00:37:28,220 --> 00:37:26,710
of the evidence that in Sydney but it

902
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:28,230
certainly worldwide that is an issue

903
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:31,690
well I think the schisms are starting to

904
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:33,760
break down in Australia especially and I

905
00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:35,200
think especially for young people

906
00:37:39,270 --> 00:37:37,390
because I think young people don't care

907
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:39,280
so much for labels and I think that's

908
00:37:44,130 --> 00:37:42,610
particularly what's divided in Australia

909
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:44,140
the freethought community is that was

910
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:45,910
sort of divided into the skeptic camp

911
00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:47,710
and the humanist camp and the atheist

912
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:49,900
camp where I think I think young people

913
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:52,030
who are getting involved today that

914
00:37:54,339 --> 00:37:52,400
every

915
00:37:56,349 --> 00:37:54,349
really care so much about what you call

916
00:37:58,059 --> 00:37:56,359
yourself it's mostly about what you

917
00:38:00,579 --> 00:37:58,069
believe in what your values are and what

918
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:00,589
you were you're trying to promote and I

919
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:03,440
think young people especially can

920
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:05,450
recognize the common values between all

921
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:07,910
of the freethought groups and groups

922
00:38:11,140 --> 00:38:09,650
like the freethought University Alliance

923
00:38:13,109 --> 00:38:11,150
which is sort of an umbrella group for

924
00:38:15,279 --> 00:38:13,119
all of the university groups and then

925
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:15,289
organizations like reason Australia

926
00:38:20,170 --> 00:38:18,079
which is a an organization which is

927
00:38:21,339 --> 00:38:20,180
bringing all of these groups together I

928
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:21,349
think it's showing that we're actually

929
00:38:26,349 --> 00:38:24,410
starting to break down those schisms and

930
00:38:29,769 --> 00:38:26,359
what's your challenge what's your

931
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:29,779
personal woo challenge unruh and what is

932
00:38:37,569 --> 00:38:31,730
the unreasonableness that really annoys

933
00:38:39,279 --> 00:38:37,579
you a good question it's usually it's

934
00:38:41,410 --> 00:38:39,289
something that occurs on almost daily

935
00:38:42,970 --> 00:38:41,420
basis is there something it might be

936
00:38:44,890 --> 00:38:42,980
something in the newspaper something you

937
00:38:47,170 --> 00:38:44,900
walk past every day to see an ad for and

938
00:38:49,390 --> 00:38:47,180
you just lose all faith in the future of

939
00:38:51,490 --> 00:38:49,400
humanity well for me I mean what drives

940
00:38:54,099 --> 00:38:51,500
me because what got me started in the

941
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:54,109
whole skeptical atheist community was my

942
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:58,010
experience when I went on exchange to in

943
00:39:01,299 --> 00:38:59,359
the United States I went to high school

944
00:39:03,849 --> 00:39:01,309
in the US and I was the only kid in my

945
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,859
class who believed in evolution or say

946
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:05,839
knew that evolution was a scientific

947
00:39:09,730 --> 00:39:08,569
fact and so that actually galvin I mean

948
00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:09,740
I'd actually never studied biology

949
00:39:13,450 --> 00:39:11,630
before and I was being told that the

950
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:13,460
earth was 6,000 years old and everything

951
00:39:18,789 --> 00:39:16,160
like that so that kind of forced me to

952
00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:18,799
read about evolution and read about

953
00:39:22,569 --> 00:39:20,420
science and actually learn how to think

954
00:39:24,910 --> 00:39:22,579
critically for myself and that's what

955
00:39:28,750 --> 00:39:24,920
bore my love for science and my love for

956
00:39:31,150 --> 00:39:28,760
the theory of evolution and I read

957
00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:31,160
widely you know Carl Sagan Stephen Jay

958
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:33,440
Gould and Richard Dawkins and what was

959
00:39:36,620 --> 00:39:34,970
your starting point did you start with

960
00:39:40,589 --> 00:39:36,630
demon haunted world

961
00:39:41,820 --> 00:39:40,599
and the blind watchmaker by richard

962
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:41,830
dawkins I think there's the two

963
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:44,290
essential starting points for a young

964
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:46,570
person but now you know I've heard this

965
00:39:49,950 --> 00:39:48,160
and I've said it on the show before and

966
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:49,960
I don't want to sound like I'm giving it

967
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:51,910
a bad rap but I bought demon haunted

968
00:39:56,490 --> 00:39:54,730
world of town Australia and Carl Sagan

969
00:39:58,140 --> 00:39:56,500
writes beautifully and he's certainly

970
00:40:00,839 --> 00:39:58,150
very knowledgeable but i found it a very

971
00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:00,849
dry read was I found a bit dry it

972
00:40:04,740 --> 00:40:03,220
wouldn't engage me where Michael

973
00:40:08,190 --> 00:40:04,750
schirmer's white people believe weird

974
00:40:09,870 --> 00:40:08,200
things that was more my journey yeah

975
00:40:12,180 --> 00:40:09,880
fair call fair call well i think i'm

976
00:40:14,490 --> 00:40:12,190
sorry i'm not saying Carl's wrong i just

977
00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:14,500
i found a bit dry yeah I know what you

978
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:15,940
mean but I'm as already a sort of a

979
00:40:22,020 --> 00:40:17,890
costume to Carl Sagan stone because I

980
00:40:24,690 --> 00:40:22,030
would sort of watched cosmos skivvy

981
00:40:26,970 --> 00:40:24,700
where is unite yeah it was rocking the

982
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:26,980
skivvy you know make bear he before

983
00:40:33,180 --> 00:40:29,410
Steve Jobs it was not a Sagan skivvy

984
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:33,190
yeah absolutely absolutely and look I

985
00:40:36,510 --> 00:40:34,690
like that little bit worries any

986
00:40:37,980 --> 00:40:36,520
spaceship going through everything it's

987
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:37,990
a bit like looking back now it looks

988
00:40:42,329 --> 00:40:39,730
like it's doctor who said it's fantastic

989
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:42,339
it's very corny yeah that's so good it

990
00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:44,050
just says it all I do think there's been

991
00:40:48,210 --> 00:40:46,300
any show that as as rich there's in it

992
00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:48,220
for that since I've been many great

993
00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:49,540
shows maybe but there are the ones that

994
00:40:55,020 --> 00:40:51,180
you put in the same league as cosmos oh

995
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:55,030
look i think late lately Brian Cox's the

996
00:40:58,950 --> 00:40:56,650
wonders of the universe has sort of been

997
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:58,960
up there I mean anything that David

998
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:00,880
Attenborough does is magic and I think

999
00:41:05,010 --> 00:41:02,710
there's no better argument for atheism

1000
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:05,020
or skepticism even than just just

1001
00:41:09,420 --> 00:41:06,609
learning biology and learning about

1002
00:41:12,780 --> 00:41:09,430
nature itself but I'm actually looking

1003
00:41:14,849 --> 00:41:12,790
forward to the sort of the the revamp of

1004
00:41:16,829 --> 00:41:14,859
Cosmos that's going to be done by neil

1005
00:41:18,839 --> 00:41:16,839
degrasse tyson not sure if you're

1006
00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:18,849
familiar with that but apparently as

1007
00:41:25,530 --> 00:41:23,680
being reborn and Neil deGrasse Tyson

1008
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:25,540
will be the presenter of it so I'm

1009
00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:27,760
pretty keen about that and I was asking

1010
00:41:30,930 --> 00:41:29,320
you what is the whew that annoys you the

1011
00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:30,940
most there and you were having a

1012
00:41:34,260 --> 00:41:32,470
difficult time and grabbing onto it

1013
00:41:36,069 --> 00:41:34,270
because is it just so much or nothing

1014
00:41:38,289 --> 00:41:36,079
really leaps out it just all really

1015
00:41:39,789 --> 00:41:38,299
all this unreasonable this is making you

1016
00:41:41,279 --> 00:41:39,799
want to yell you know what I think one

1017
00:41:43,359 --> 00:41:41,289
of the things is because i did a

1018
00:41:44,380 --> 00:41:43,369
Bachelor of Arts at the University of

1019
00:41:46,690 --> 00:41:44,390
Melbourne and the one thing that

1020
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:46,700
frustrated me more than anything was

1021
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:49,609
this whole post modern argument that you

1022
00:41:54,219 --> 00:41:52,400
know truth is relative and everything

1023
00:41:58,209 --> 00:41:54,229
like that so that that that really

1024
00:42:00,789 --> 00:41:58,219
pissed me off a lot and I had a very fun

1025
00:42:03,099 --> 00:42:00,799
time but also frustrating time debating

1026
00:42:05,769 --> 00:42:03,109
people within the sort of liberal

1027
00:42:07,569 --> 00:42:05,779
academic circles who was sort of arguing

1028
00:42:09,459 --> 00:42:07,579
that science is just one way of knowing

1029
00:42:11,799 --> 00:42:09,469
as opposed to the best way of knowing

1030
00:42:13,449 --> 00:42:11,809
which I would argue at his mmm that's

1031
00:42:15,249 --> 00:42:13,459
one but I then again if you are looking

1032
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:15,259
at a work of art everyone who looks at

1033
00:42:18,579 --> 00:42:16,130
it's going to have a different opinion

1034
00:42:21,309 --> 00:42:18,589
so I can see why that would holds water

1035
00:42:23,709 --> 00:42:21,319
in some way I can see why it does and I

1036
00:42:25,779 --> 00:42:23,719
can see in our sort of post-colonial

1037
00:42:28,449 --> 00:42:25,789
world how you can see that there was a

1038
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:28,459
lot of things that the West got wrong

1039
00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:31,630
when it came when it comes to sort of

1040
00:42:35,979 --> 00:42:34,430
forcing values on to developing

1041
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:35,989
countries and everything like that but i

1042
00:42:43,150 --> 00:42:38,170
think it's it's misplaced to say that

1043
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:43,160
because colonialism was sort of Miss

1044
00:42:48,430 --> 00:42:46,190
misguided that therefore science can't

1045
00:42:50,349 --> 00:42:48,440
offer us anything so you'd also be wary

1046
00:42:52,809 --> 00:42:50,359
of historical revisionism wouldn't you

1047
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:52,819
yeah yeah yeah absolutely and I you know

1048
00:42:57,249 --> 00:42:54,890
that's that was kind of something that

1049
00:43:00,400 --> 00:42:57,259
really got me fired up our back in my

1050
00:43:02,529 --> 00:43:00,410
uni days have you do debating on stage

1051
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:02,539
you would take these other fields on do

1052
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:04,130
do enjoy a good debate you like getting

1053
00:43:08,499 --> 00:43:06,079
up there and being the whip you know I'm

1054
00:43:11,890 --> 00:43:08,509
actually not really a confrontational

1055
00:43:14,259 --> 00:43:11,900
kind of person I actually we've we've

1056
00:43:15,489 --> 00:43:14,269
organized debates before but I tend to

1057
00:43:17,259 --> 00:43:15,499
like to sit back and just watch it

1058
00:43:19,779 --> 00:43:17,269
happen i'm not really one to engage in

1059
00:43:22,089 --> 00:43:19,789
it i think i'm more of someone who will

1060
00:43:24,069 --> 00:43:22,099
go and talk on a multi-faith panel and

1061
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:24,079
try and bring everyone together into a

1062
00:43:28,569 --> 00:43:26,089
sort of one understanding as opposed to

1063
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:28,579
fight them you get to say why can't we

1064
00:43:32,559 --> 00:43:30,410
all just get along is that you yeah no

1065
00:43:35,499 --> 00:43:32,569
that's me I'm up there preaching love

1066
00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:35,509
and free and basically trying to explain

1067
00:43:39,579 --> 00:43:37,670
that as human beings no matter whether a

1068
00:43:42,189 --> 00:43:39,589
religious or atheists or anything we do

1069
00:43:44,469 --> 00:43:42,199
sort of share a common common values and

1070
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:44,479
we should work together on on important

1071
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:46,170
issues to sort of

1072
00:43:50,330 --> 00:43:48,930
humanity and the chief social justice so

1073
00:43:52,850 --> 00:43:50,340
you definitely agree with you don't be a

1074
00:43:55,370 --> 00:43:52,860
dick approach I think I'd probably fall

1075
00:43:57,290 --> 00:43:55,380
on the don't be a dick approach but I am

1076
00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:57,300
very sympathetic to it and I do think

1077
00:44:03,770 --> 00:44:00,960
that I do think that in any movement you

1078
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:03,780
need to have different different ways of

1079
00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:05,310
communicating what you believe in and I

1080
00:44:09,410 --> 00:44:07,380
think that being a dick is effective to

1081
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:09,420
some people because everyone thinks

1082
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:10,800
certain things are going to resonate

1083
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:12,720
particularly well with some people as

1084
00:44:15,980 --> 00:44:14,880
opposed to as opposed to other people

1085
00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:15,990
and some people are going to be really

1086
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,060
persuade by the likes of pz myers who's

1087
00:44:22,850 --> 00:44:20,400
Richard Dawkins who are being dicks or

1088
00:44:25,790 --> 00:44:22,860
you know anything like that but but also

1089
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:25,800
people are going to be really on the

1090
00:44:28,250 --> 00:44:26,910
other hand you're going to be bringing

1091
00:44:29,420 --> 00:44:28,260
people to the movement by having people

1092
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:29,430
who are more moderate and more

1093
00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:31,890
accommodating and so I can see that that

1094
00:44:35,930 --> 00:44:33,510
it's essential in a movement to have

1095
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:35,940
both sides now what's the next event

1096
00:44:40,310 --> 00:44:37,110
where people can get on board of what

1097
00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:40,320
you guys are doing in Victoria well one

1098
00:44:44,930 --> 00:44:43,020
of the biggest things that I'm occupies

1099
00:44:47,060 --> 00:44:44,940
most of my time is organising the next

1100
00:44:50,030 --> 00:44:47,070
global atheist convention which is going

1101
00:44:51,950 --> 00:44:50,040
to be held in April 2012 we've managed

1102
00:44:54,370 --> 00:44:51,960
to secure the likes of richard dawkins

1103
00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:54,380
and sam Harris and Daniel Dennett and

1104
00:44:59,570 --> 00:44:56,730
Christopher Hitchens if his health will

1105
00:45:02,240 --> 00:44:59,580
hold up so the Four Horsemen of the

1106
00:45:04,910 --> 00:45:02,250
so-called anti apocalypse will be coming

1107
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:04,920
to melbourne for the global atheist

1108
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:06,930
convention the tagline for that event is

1109
00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:09,690
a celebration of reason and I think part

1110
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:12,540
of that is to do with that we sort of we

1111
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:15,210
want to move beyond just atheism and

1112
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:17,130
sort of start to project what positive

1113
00:45:21,140 --> 00:45:19,290
values as atheists we do believe in and

1114
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:21,150
so we think that a celebration of reason

1115
00:45:25,790 --> 00:45:22,710
is sort of part of what an atheist

1116
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:25,800
convention can be all about so you can

1117
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:27,690
find out more information about that at

1118
00:45:31,310 --> 00:45:29,250
a theist convention da da da da you

1119
00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:31,320
tickets are on sale now and selling very

1120
00:45:34,849 --> 00:45:32,670
fast

1121
00:45:37,220 --> 00:45:34,859
now most people would agree that reasons

1122
00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:37,230
a good thing but it's not often a

1123
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:38,760
selling point hey we're going to go out

1124
00:45:42,470 --> 00:45:40,710
on sat there night we're gonna get so

1125
00:45:44,359 --> 00:45:42,480
reasonable you don't usually hear that

1126
00:45:47,359 --> 00:45:44,369
do you know you don't but I think that

1127
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:47,369
part of what the the New Atheism is on

1128
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:49,170
about is about this return to

1129
00:45:55,130 --> 00:45:51,930
enlightenment values that actually you

1130
00:45:57,049 --> 00:45:55,140
know these are the sort of values what

1131
00:45:59,049 --> 00:45:57,059
science was born out of which modern

1132
00:46:01,400 --> 00:45:59,059
medicine comes out of which our

1133
00:46:04,849 --> 00:46:01,410
understanding of human rights comes out

1134
00:46:06,980 --> 00:46:04,859
of the other I mean reason refers to the

1135
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:06,990
capacity that we have as human beings to

1136
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:08,910
discern what's right and wrong and think

1137
00:46:12,829 --> 00:46:11,520
so I think it sort of comes down to

1138
00:46:16,579 --> 00:46:12,839
something that's really essential when

1139
00:46:18,380 --> 00:46:16,589
it comes to sort of I guess figuring out

1140
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:18,390
how we can fix some of those serious

1141
00:46:22,010 --> 00:46:20,130
problems in the world especially when

1142
00:46:25,180 --> 00:46:22,020
you look at massive issues like climate

1143
00:46:28,339 --> 00:46:25,190
changes or even famine we really need

1144
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:28,349
reasonable evidence-based solutions to

1145
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:31,170
these massive problems notation just on

1146
00:46:34,609 --> 00:46:32,970
a personal level here it just sort of

1147
00:46:36,589 --> 00:46:34,619
clicked listening to you then why one of

1148
00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:36,599
the reasons I like chatting in and being

1149
00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:37,980
a fellow travel with the skeptics I'm

1150
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:39,030
not quite sure want to describe myself

1151
00:46:42,890 --> 00:46:40,890
as a skeptic as I'm very susceptible to

1152
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:42,900
all sorts of stuff i love interviewing

1153
00:46:47,870 --> 00:46:44,490
people that have really thought things

1154
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:47,880
through like that and it's all its you

1155
00:46:51,380 --> 00:46:49,530
get that in other areas of woo as well

1156
00:46:53,089 --> 00:46:51,390
but in areas of wood but i just like it

1157
00:46:54,980 --> 00:46:53,099
you've obviously sat down and had a good

1158
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:54,990
think about this at a young age inspired

1159
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,210
by being in that class maybe when you

1160
00:47:01,760 --> 00:46:59,040
had to learn that the world's only 6,000

1161
00:47:05,180 --> 00:47:01,770
years old which is used to me yeah I

1162
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,190
think I'm I think that that's the

1163
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:07,680
difference between the skeptics and

1164
00:47:10,849 --> 00:47:09,510
people who are active about atheism or

1165
00:47:12,530 --> 00:47:10,859
whatever is that they've actually sat

1166
00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:12,540
down and had a good think about it I

1167
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:14,700
think and I like to be around other

1168
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:16,410
people who have also sat down and had a

1169
00:47:21,620 --> 00:47:19,290
good think about it because I mean to be

1170
00:47:22,849 --> 00:47:21,630
fair a lot of theologians would probably

1171
00:47:24,410 --> 00:47:22,859
sat down and reach the different

1172
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,420
different conclusion yeah but that's

1173
00:47:27,859 --> 00:47:26,400
also why i like talking to them as well

1174
00:47:29,299 --> 00:47:27,869
because they've had to think about

1175
00:47:31,039 --> 00:47:29,309
they've got a different answer but they

1176
00:47:33,260 --> 00:47:31,049
were to think about it yeah absolutely

1177
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:33,270
and I mean look one anecdote I like to

1178
00:47:35,980 --> 00:47:34,400
tell about that is

1179
00:47:37,599 --> 00:47:35,990
that when we're at the University of

1180
00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:37,609
Melbourne we started up a secular

1181
00:47:41,260 --> 00:47:39,680
society we actually had a really great

1182
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:41,270
relationship with the Christian Union

1183
00:47:44,769 --> 00:47:43,010
there because I've noticed that the same

1184
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:44,779
you can also uni that's also the case as

1185
00:47:49,059 --> 00:47:47,119
well yeah yeah um because I mean we feel

1186
00:47:50,529 --> 00:47:49,069
that they're there just as much

1187
00:47:52,329 --> 00:47:50,539
challenged by the fact that most young

1188
00:47:54,339 --> 00:47:52,339
people these days are really apathetic

1189
00:47:56,170 --> 00:47:54,349
about anything and now we're just really

1190
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,180
enthusiastic to find other young people

1191
00:47:59,980 --> 00:47:58,160
who actually cared about these issues

1192
00:48:02,200 --> 00:47:59,990
like does God exist is there a purpose

1193
00:48:03,940 --> 00:48:02,210
to life is there an afterlife even

1194
00:48:06,670 --> 00:48:03,950
though we have an opposite perspective

1195
00:48:08,410 --> 00:48:06,680
or an opposite conclusion about those

1196
00:48:10,210 --> 00:48:08,420
the answers to those questions are

1197
00:48:11,769 --> 00:48:10,220
actually really interested to find other

1198
00:48:14,349 --> 00:48:11,779
people who they could engage with in

1199
00:48:16,180 --> 00:48:14,359
debate with and talk with well I hope

1200
00:48:18,539 --> 00:48:16,190
people get online and just do that with

1201
00:48:21,269 --> 00:48:18,549
you down in Victoria yeah please do I'm

1202
00:48:24,099 --> 00:48:21,279
websites web links young loss skeptics

1203
00:48:26,980 --> 00:48:24,109
calm freethought Alliance dogs are you

1204
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:26,990
atheist convention dogs or a year you

1205
00:48:31,329 --> 00:48:28,730
can follow me on twitter at jason ball

1206
00:48:33,010 --> 00:48:31,339
88 if you came that's cool I think we

1207
00:48:34,750 --> 00:48:33,020
better get inside because Lauren's lungs

1208
00:48:36,609 --> 00:48:34,760
coming on the minute I love Lauren sling

1209
00:48:39,730 --> 00:48:36,619
I love it so it's incredible change my

1210
00:48:43,930 --> 00:48:42,370
i'm here with Maynard hello Maynard hang

1211
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:43,940
on this is an ambush video what is this

1212
00:48:48,370 --> 00:48:45,440
some kind of buzz marketing for the

1213
00:48:50,109 --> 00:48:48,380
skeptics I guess it is wow how did you

1214
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:50,119
enjoy today it's been a very busy day

1215
00:48:53,290 --> 00:48:51,680
like most of these things by the way

1216
00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:53,300
ignore the fact that my fingers are

1217
00:48:56,650 --> 00:48:55,310
around your neck and you know just you

1218
00:48:58,180 --> 00:48:56,660
see what I say really what you think

1219
00:48:59,650 --> 00:48:58,190
about today it's been a very busy day I

1220
00:49:01,870 --> 00:48:59,660
had a pretty bad ear ache in the middle

1221
00:49:03,850 --> 00:49:01,880
of the day and I was like putting my

1222
00:49:05,109 --> 00:49:03,860
head down during the TGA discussion with

1223
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:05,119
just falling asleep because we're after

1224
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:06,530
lunch well that's what I thought people

1225
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:08,450
would think he's drunk again or he's

1226
00:49:11,770 --> 00:49:10,250
meditating and you don't be meditating

1227
00:49:13,210 --> 00:49:11,780
at a skeptics convention really your

1228
00:49:14,859 --> 00:49:13,220
infant will prefer to be drunk you

1229
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:14,869
prefer to be drunk and look I've been

1230
00:49:18,250 --> 00:49:15,920
having a great chat or just having a

1231
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:18,260
chapter Jason and I spend these days I

1232
00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:20,000
know I've just been talking for like

1233
00:49:24,010 --> 00:49:22,220
four hours now and that's how I don't

1234
00:49:26,530 --> 00:49:24,020
really experience these events I

1235
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:26,540
basically interview people about the

1236
00:49:29,740 --> 00:49:28,610
event so I'm not really at it if you

1237
00:49:31,690 --> 00:49:29,750
know what I mean yeah but today today

1238
00:49:33,370 --> 00:49:31,700
you did experience even where I mean you

1239
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:33,380
were at the event most of the bank yeah

1240
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:35,119
but I was thinking oh now where's

1241
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:36,050
where's that person going to be able

1242
00:49:39,609 --> 00:49:37,970
need to chat to them so I do today I

1243
00:49:42,220 --> 00:49:39,619
probably experienced a skeptic event

1244
00:49:43,870 --> 00:49:42,230
more than usual because I was actually

1245
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:43,880
able to have a look at it if I got a

1246
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:46,490
term like I did with you guys in Sydney

1247
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:48,710
I was always outside I was never at the

1248
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:50,210
actual event because I was judgment

1249
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:51,890
running around and I know exactly how

1250
00:49:55,750 --> 00:49:53,690
that feels yeah well yeah exactly i'm

1251
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:55,760
watching the i watch the time dvds now

1252
00:50:00,430 --> 00:49:57,650
because that's my opportunity to see all

1253
00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:00,440
the talks from a year ago and so out of

1254
00:50:06,340 --> 00:50:02,470
today what was your favorite talk

1255
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:06,350
definitely the first one our plastic

1256
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:07,760
surgeon who i came in halfway through

1257
00:50:11,590 --> 00:50:09,410
and I'm Williams yes just had a great

1258
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:11,600
chat to him then really nice guy really

1259
00:50:15,849 --> 00:50:13,790
great description of his career as a

1260
00:50:17,500 --> 00:50:15,859
plastic surgeon and as a cosmetic

1261
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:17,510
surgeon and the history of how it's

1262
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:19,970
changed a bit in over the last couple of

1263
00:50:23,859 --> 00:50:21,710
years and where these sort of

1264
00:50:25,330 --> 00:50:23,869
potentially shonky areas are and how he

1265
00:50:26,830 --> 00:50:25,340
feels about advertising that cosmetic

1266
00:50:28,540 --> 00:50:26,840
surgery it's great to talk to a

1267
00:50:29,859 --> 00:50:28,550
professional in an area that you know

1268
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:29,869
nothing about which is pretty much

1269
00:50:34,130 --> 00:50:31,410
everything I talked about

1270
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:34,140
and find out a unique perspective that

1271
00:50:39,799 --> 00:50:36,660
you never learned but to then okay so

1272
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:39,809
all in all all in all one to ten I'd

1273
00:50:44,569 --> 00:50:41,910
have to give it an eight I'd have to

1274
00:50:47,420 --> 00:50:44,579
give my ear ache a zero and I'm looking

1275
00:50:50,839 --> 00:50:47,430
forward to so where did we lose two

1276
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:50,849
marks probably buck actually you don't

1277
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:54,000
have said no there was no I was looking

1278
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,530
forward to a Jerry Springer moment in

1279
00:50:59,779 --> 00:50:58,079
the TGA roundtable discussion yeah and I

1280
00:51:02,900 --> 00:50:59,789
won the reason I left was cool it was

1281
00:51:04,370 --> 00:51:02,910
actually just as you left Rohan I mean

1282
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:04,380
they just make it just pulled pulled

1283
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:07,200
Ken's here will really get out well I

1284
00:51:10,789 --> 00:51:08,970
thought a chair was going to be thrown I

1285
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:10,799
thought you know somebody might come in

1286
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:12,450
that was like someone's ex lover or

1287
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:13,920
something like that the door burst open

1288
00:51:17,450 --> 00:51:15,839
and fingers of it what happened just as

1289
00:51:19,609 --> 00:51:17,460
you left I thought that would be the

1290
00:51:21,319 --> 00:51:19,619
case but just that was a really great

1291
00:51:23,180 --> 00:51:21,329
day and I like hanging out with skeptics

1292
00:51:24,859 --> 00:51:23,190
cuz it like look I'm i'm not i'm not

1293
00:51:27,049 --> 00:51:24,869
completely bride I'm not the sharpest

1294
00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:27,059
pencil in the box I liked I'm just

1295
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:28,950
generally very inquisitive about things

1296
00:51:33,620 --> 00:51:31,170
because I just don't know much stuff and

1297
00:51:35,029 --> 00:51:33,630
I probably learn a lot of stuff that you

1298
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:35,039
already know do you have anything bad to

1299
00:51:39,650 --> 00:51:36,930
say about yourself well look yeah um

1300
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:39,660
yeah I look with the cosmetic surgeon I

1301
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,609
would like to look 10 years younger and

1302
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:43,200
but the easiest way to do that is just

1303
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:45,690
to have a good lifestyle have a good

1304
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:48,450
diet and have exercised and there's no

1305
00:51:52,099 --> 00:51:50,490
chance of you doing any time that so I'm

1306
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:52,109
actually looking forward looking ten

1307
00:51:57,319 --> 00:51:55,650
years old in about a week okay thank you

1308
00:51:59,029 --> 00:51:57,329
very much me know this has been made out

1309
00:52:00,680 --> 00:51:59,039
from the poop deck no no no this has

1310
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:00,690
been around from the poop deck it's a

1311
00:52:16,450 --> 00:52:02,130
run from the poop deck we're

1312
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:22,160
the dirty disbelievers oh what a lot I

1313
00:52:25,970 --> 00:52:23,490
can hear them I can eat them all what's

1314
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:25,980
going on give me more mr. announcer guy

1315
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:29,040
on ABC local radio digital radio and

1316
00:52:35,849 --> 00:52:31,650
online weekends at six o'clock of the

1317
00:52:40,170 --> 00:52:35,859
dirty disbelievers the evil disbelievers

1318
00:52:42,509 --> 00:52:40,180
I would watch canal take the red pill

1319
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:42,519
and the blue pill I say I can hear them

1320
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:45,609
I can hear them or we'll all listen yeah

1321
00:53:03,240 --> 00:52:59,850
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1322
00:53:06,330 --> 00:53:03,250
zone thank you again Maynard man that

1323
00:53:08,490 --> 00:53:06,340
guy works hard he works hard and he's

1324
00:53:12,750 --> 00:53:08,500
going to work even harder for us in tam

1325
00:53:16,020 --> 00:53:12,760
las vegas come our july was a june july

1326
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:16,030
i think it is that will be so much fun

1327
00:53:20,910 --> 00:53:18,310
to have maynard on the spot there and

1328
00:53:23,550 --> 00:53:20,920
for you to meet if you come to tam you

1329
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:23,560
can meet me not very exciting well i

1330
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:25,450
think this is probably the very final

1331
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:29,520
show of the skeptic zone for 2011 I

1332
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:33,910
think I'm be able to get 11 more done

1333
00:53:39,180 --> 00:53:36,850
before New Year's I don't know i don't

1334
00:53:41,820 --> 00:53:39,190
know maybe maybe New Year's Day or maybe

1335
00:53:43,770 --> 00:53:41,830
the second who knows it's it's holiday

1336
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:43,780
time you know don't worry about

1337
00:53:47,940 --> 00:53:45,520
schedules right now but there will be

1338
00:53:51,150 --> 00:53:47,950
one coming up next week what's going to

1339
00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:51,160
be on it who knows who knows and don't

1340
00:53:59,280 --> 00:53:54,640
forget next year 2012 is when the world

1341
00:54:04,500 --> 00:53:59,290
ends so get your kicks in now folks well

1342
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:04,510
until next week or next year hmm this is

1343
00:54:13,770 --> 00:54:07,570
Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney

1344
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:13,780
Australia you've been listening to the

1345
00:54:20,310 --> 00:54:15,490
skeptic zone

1346
00:54:23,340 --> 00:54:20,320
visit our website at www skeptics on TV